29 replies to this topic

[t9nv3]

So, after abut five consecutive 12-1 stomps dropping in a 2 man, I think its time to move the discussion past the tired old "group play is broken" argument and into something more constructive. The old pug tactic of hiding or playing defensively will get you killed every single time. In EVERY single game I played one team pushed hard and just stomped the crap out of teams just milling about hoping to snipe at range. In spite of my best efforts to warn people, it seems that most group players aren't seeing how things have changed and are slow to adapt.

I'm not a pro-player....so I'm hoping people will help to improve group play by sharing tactics, or giving some pointers on how to play outside of the pug solo drop environment. This is how the game is played now....like it or not. The problem isn't dropping against a 12 man...the problem is a complete lack of understanding on how game flows outside the pug camp fest.

Edited by t9nv3, 03 July 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[Oni Ralas]

Tactics are good, tactics are useful. Tactics fall apart with pinpoint damage mechanics.

Being in a 12man doesn't make you invincible, but the probability of success goes vertical when your makeup is dull of dakka and ppc. Hell, LRM even to some extent (which we all know I love...) but right now, even those aren't anywhere close to the 12man poptarts.

Edited by Oni Ralas, 03 July 2014 - 09:28 AM.

[t9nv3]

Well, if meta was the issue here, I'd be happy....but the problem, as I see it, is actually a lot more fundamental. In every single group drop i've played since patch....one team mills about confused....while the other pushes aggressively and just stomps. I don't care if you are running meta loadouts or not, or how many groups the other team has. The team who hangs back and turtles is going to get rushed, and it seems that most people are just not expecting this. I'm not saying anything new here at all. Just hoping people will look at this topic and maybe figure out that they need to change their play-style.

I mean, I'd like the group thing to work....but people just don't seem to understand why they keep dying. I know good players have been pointing this out forever, but I think it bears repeating with the new drop ques.

[Sandpit]

you should distinguish "groups". 2man groups are in the solo queue aren't they?

[Ph30nix]

If they are having full 12 mans dropping vs Pug's then that is the problem. I didnt see anywhere that it was allowed i thought it was still Group vs Group (when that large) only and each team had to have equal number of "group" players.

[WVAnonymous]

Sandpit, on 03 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

you should distinguish "groups". 2man groups are in the solo queue aren't they?

Not as far as I could tell. I was dropping as a 2-man last night and we were the infill for a 10-man at least once.

[t9nv3]

Don't think we've dropped in the solo queue yet. In my experience its been a bunch of small groups behaving like you would in a pug match...verses a team that rushes. I mean, some people are "getting it" obviously, but it seems like a lot of people are just having serious trouble catching up.

It just seems that a lot of the smaller groups just don't have any sense of how the game flows in group play, and this, I think is why people are getting upset. I mean, in the group queue, i've had to argue almost every game that people cant just camp and hide...but every game seems to go that way....maybe I'm having bad luck...but I think there are a lot of people who have no idea what is hitting them when they drop in 4 or 2 mans....and they need to get caught up. I mean, it makes the game better for everyone if people learn....

Edited by t9nv3, 03 July 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

t9nv3, on 03 July 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Don't think we've dropped in the solo queue yet. In my experience its been a bunch of small groups behaving like you would in a pug match...verses a team that rushes. I mean, some people are "getting it" obviously, but it seems like a lot of people are just having serious trouble catching up.

I'm not sure that two days qualifies as "trouble catching up".

[Bilbo]

Sandpit, on 03 July 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

you should distinguish "groups". 2man groups are in the solo queue aren't they?

Sometimes. 2-4 player groups are placed into both queue.
As to the OP, yeah, good ol' controlled aggression works wanders against disorganized turtles.

[t9nv3]

WVAnonymous, on 03 July 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm not sure that two days qualifies as "trouble catching up".

For sure. I just want to take the discussion away from "OMG stop dropping me against 12 manz!" and get people thinking that they need to approach the game differently when their small group does land in the deep end Its obviously an ELO issue here, and I'm not dropping against amazing teams by any means....but I suspect a lot of people are in the same boat. I've had the same argument every time I land in the group queue.....people just aren't seeing that the difference has less to do with meta than it does with playstyle.

[Davers]

Hanging back and sniping only works if your team can actually hit and eliminate the enemy on the way in. If the shooting is sporadic and the damage is being spread everywhere you can't stop the other team from closing. As usual focus firing and teamwork trumps just about everything.

[Pygar]

t9nv3, on 03 July 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Well, if meta was the issue here, I'd be happy....but the problem, as I see it, is actually a lot more fundamental. In every single group drop i've played since patch....one team mills about confused....while the other pushes aggressively and just stomps. I don't care if you are running meta loadouts or not, or how many groups the other team has. The team who hangs back and turtles is going to get rushed, and it seems that most people are just not expecting this. I'm not saying anything new here at all. Just hoping people will look at this topic and maybe figure out that they need to change their play-style.

I mean, I'd like the group thing to work....but people just don't seem to understand why they keep dying. I know good players have been pointing this out forever, but I think it bears repeating with the new drop ques.

Yes, what you are seeing is the PUG "Amoeba" formation...which stems from lack of communication mixed with some survival logic. (Or at least logical from a given point of view- but as you point out, not being aggressive and pushing toward the enemy gets PUGs rolled all of the time.)

In groups now, people are going to have to communicate more, both inside their group and with the other groups (or PUGs) on their team. Also, group players are going to have to realize that now if they are going to make a group, they might as well gather as big of a group as they can muster- kind of hoses people who just want to play with one other buddy, but in the long run I think this will be a boon for group players overall. (once everybody adjusts to the new normal.)

Edited by Pygar, 03 July 2014 - 11:14 AM.

[t9nv3]

This is a good thing for sure.... and communication is huge. I just wish they would do something to the MM algorithm that would limit group number disparity between sides. Something very simple....like no more than 1 group number difference per side. So a 12 man could face a 10+2, an 8+4 things like that.... but never like 3x 4 man groups....or a whole bunch of small ones. This way an 8+4 could face 3x4 groups. Communication is obviously key here...and since they wont give us in game coms having less groups to manage will go a long way here.

Edited by t9nv3, 03 July 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 03 July 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

Hanging back and sniping only works if your team can actually hit and eliminate the enemy on the way in. If the shooting is sporadic and the damage is being spread everywhere you can't stop the other team from closing. As usual focus firing and teamwork trumps just about everything.

^This

Some of my more successful builds involve sitting back and sniping with my LLs. Not something I can do successfully as a loner. I require my team's help to make sure I don't
Get flanked
get swarmed by hunter packs
have someone else to help soak damage
allow me to pick and choose priority targets
etc.
etc.
etc.

Davers has saved my butt too many times to count when we drop together. None of us run many if any "meta" builds. We take out a lot of metas though. Teamwork trumps builds just about every time. All piloting skills even a team of meta humpers, or any other team for that matter, will lose most times to a team with "inferior" builds if the "inferior" team has better teamwork.

Goes without saying though that many that play MWO do not, will not, or simply can not accept that. Until you get more team in team based shooter, you're not going to improve stuff like that.

[Dracol]

Communication is key. Need for order wheel/Voip aside, just a few words in text can do wonders:

"Water's clear" "Enemy moving Hill" "Cave!"

And if you're on the receiving end of an ECM flank attack, plz for your teammates, get on team chat and let us know.

Don't let your death be in vain.

Edited by Dracol, 03 July 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[WVAnonymous]

Sandpit, on 03 July 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Davers has saved my butt too many times to count when we drop together. None of us run many if any "meta" builds. We take out a lot of metas though. Teamwork trumps builds just about every time. All piloting skills even a team of meta humpers, or any other team for that matter, will lose most times to a team with "inferior" builds if the "inferior" team has better teamwork.

Not to say anything against teamwork, but to speak against the "meta" build pilots, there is a huge difference in pilot quality between the guys who invent the meta and the guys who copy the meta. I kill lots of guys with meta builds, but down in the lower Elo brackets where I spend the bulk of my time, I suspect I am also one of the "inferior" pilots.

(No insult meant to the pilots who are better than I am that consent to drop with me anyway)

[Sandpit]

WVAnonymous, on 03 July 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Not to say anything against teamwork, but to speak against the "meta" build pilots, there is a huge difference in pilot quality between the guys who invent the meta and the guys who copy the meta. I kill lots of guys with meta builds, but down in the lower Elo brackets where I spend the bulk of my time, I suspect I am also one of the "inferior" pilots.

(No insult meant to the pilots who are better than I am that consent to drop with me anyway)

I understand what you're saying. I agree with you as well. I may not be "top tier" but I promise my Elo w/l and kdr have always been positive or much closer to positive than negative so I think I can safely assume that I'm fighting at least "slightly above average" opponents most times. I've also done 12mans and know there's a huge difference between people who master a tactic and/or build and the guys who see it on the field and try to imitate it.

Point being, all things equal (piloting skill wise), teamwork will win more often than not. Even meta builds will crumble given a good team that works together and knows how to counter those builds and tactics. That's what I was driving at.

[Edustaja]

I've had such fun in 6-8 man group that it's almost too good to be true.

Fast to make the group with the new menu. Just drop in the guys you have and go.

[Sandpit]

Hoping to get some matches in tonight

[pwnface]

I think the main issue is difficulty in communicating with a mix of small teams rather than a larger team over VOIP. PGI should implement an EASY way for a company commander/lance commander to call out targets to be focused or positions to be attacked or defended. Pulling up your map in the heat of battle is just dumb and not realistic. If they were able to implement something like this it would help close the gap between 3x4man groups and 10-12man groups.